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no mounted style or large gps's for worlds
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eddie



Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 15
Location: NZ

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALEX wrote:
The New Zealand ban is more political than safety driven;as mentioned before some of the teams pre run and plot the best and safest route;for financial or anti-technology reasons some groups have opposed the use of GPS units.

It was not that long ago that there was no pre running of a river allowed in New Zealand as it was felt that the teams without time/finance to prerun would be at a disadvantage.

There has already been discussion on banning the turbine boats ....whenever new technology becomes available there will opposition to it;Safety is often used as a justification.


Hi guys, I just want to add my two cents from an NZer's perspective.

I think you guys are getting the wrong idea here. What do you mean by the ban being political? It was democratic, at our last AGM it was motioned that GPS be permitted in our sport and the votes were 9 for, and 24 against. It is clear that we do not want them here, for several reasons, although I can see why it would be a great idea to have on in Canada, as the rivers over there are completely different.

Pre boating the rivers is all good and always has been. The only exceptions that I can think of is when there is no 5-knot rule uplifting on certain sections of some rivers except for the day of the race and also in the 05 worlds when the race was nearly cancelled to stop the spread of a noxious weed in the rivers.

Yes, there have been genuine concerns about turbines on some of our rivers. What’s wrong with that?

As for being technophobes, WTF. We love it. Our racers are just as progressive as anywhere else in the world. NZ racers embrace technology such as fuel injection and turbos and are doing very well with it. We as a nation pride ourselves on being innovative.
I think that it is interesting that it was a Canadian team who proposed the idea to our association after the 09 World’s here.

I am all for using GPS in Canada, Mexico and the States, but not here.


Very Happy
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TOP DAWG



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Peace River Alberta anada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uh , what canadian team would that be I wonder ???????????????? Confused
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Coyotitto



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 54
Location: Red Deer River

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be S. King. Please do not get me wrong as i can see both arguments but i agree with the guys from N.Z. to ban the bigger units. There is a lot of technologies we could employ to get us down the river safer here for example helicopters low in front of us as guides but wear do you draw the line between safety and a competitive advantage. You do need to remeber where we came a bunch of avid river boaters who decided to pit there skills against each over for bragging rights as to who was king of the river. P.S. they were not running GPS.
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were also only going 80 mph.

I find it kinda funny that a decent gps would have alerted Russel/ Spencer of the large rocks coming up on his fatefull Smokey run this year. It would not have gave them an advantage but it would have saved the big crash. Luckily they were not hurt, but it came close to being bad. Do we have to wait until it is bad until we decide that it would be nice to have some sort of warning system on board of the impending doom. I am all for competitive racing but we don't have to be red necks to do it(allthough I am one). Doing crazy things is great for the adrenaline rush and is awsome and that why we do it. Doing crazy things without regard for safety equipment is stupid.

When I think back of alot of the crashes that have happened there are more than a few that would have been averted with the proper use of a decent gps system.

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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!
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Hines



Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Red Deer

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey fellows you guys are all good racers,leave the gps in the truck maybe everbody will make the start,rocks will always be in the river da,channels will always change,prerun do whatever you dont need more shit in their to distract the nav,or driver,how many bad accindents i mean bad crasies has their been,just stay with good old racing.Later.
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hines wrote:
Hey fellows you guys are all good racers,leave the gps in the truck maybe everbody will make the start,rocks will always be in the river da,channels will always change,prerun do whatever you dont need more shit in their to distract the nav,or driver,how many bad accindents i mean bad crasies has their been,just stay with good old racing.Later.


What boat you race in Hines?

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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!
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Hines



Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Red Deer

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boosted i don't race boats,been on the river lots,around the races lots love it,involued in a 2005 grandam JERRY BICKEL car 1283hp 1800 with the little red button,but i just wrench,DOC knows the car.Later.
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is what I thought. Unless you are travelling the river at 100 + mph then I would consider your comment a little unvalid. Having said that you are of course more than welcome to your opion of what we should do. Don't want to be donkey but I just wanted to keep things clear. Smile

Any how my views are known and have been posted so this will be the last from me on the subject unless there are specific questions.

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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!


Last edited by boosted on Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MISSBHAVEN



Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 313
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prior to the UIM meeting during Oct 11-17, I tried to contact Tom Stanley who is the CBF representative attending the UIM meeting to see if he could voice our concerns on this subject, however it looks like it was too little too late. I've attached his email to me below.

Quote:
Hi Jesse:

I got your email regarding the proposed rule changes at the UIM meeting after I got back from the UIM meeting. The proposed rule changes went through as presented.

Before I left, I phoned Brian McGregor, (while he was in the hospital actually) and talked to him about the proposals. In my position, I don't really get to advocate for any of the proposals, but to follow the position put forward by Canada. Brian assured my that the proposals were the way I was to vote, that the Canadian racers were OK with the package. I also met with the representitives of New Zealand and Leo Wright from Spokane representing the US river marathon boats. My understanding is that the package of rule proposals is discussed and put together ahead of time, and discussed and negotiated between the four countries. The resulting published proposals are presented as a package.

This system seems to work quite well for getting things done, particularly this year in the acceptance of the CX class. The meeting at the UIM where the proposals are discussed is long and contentious. This year there were 105 proposals and the River Marathon package was number 89. The meeting lasted ten hours. By the time they got to the River Marathon proposals, they were just happy to hear that the stakeholder countries were in agreement, so they supported it for the final vote which is mostly a formality. Some proposal packages presented at this meeting ended up getting withdrawn entirely because of some controversy over a couple of details.

I did go to the forum that you directed me to and can see that there are pros and cons to having the large GPS. Now that the rule has passed, it will take some time to get it removed if that is what the majority want. I'm not sure of the exact period but once a rule is passed it can't be repealed or replaced for two or three years. To get it changed now you have to work at getting a consensus among the racers in all four countries, so that when the time comes it can be presented by the River Marathon sub-committee to the UIM.

Tom Stanley


We'll have to wait for the release of the official rules to see how they're worded but I've been told that below is how the GPS rule was presented at the meeting, and if it was, it will require some clarification as to if the maximum screen size can't be more than 4 inches high, wide or diagonal?

Quote:
900.5. Equipment
o) Only small (maximum of 4 inch screen) hand held, Global Positioning Systems (GPS) can be used on the race boat.


I understand that some of you and myself included, have some serious safety concerns about Large GPS's being outlawed, but it appears that this is the way it's going to be and there's not much we can do about it for the 2011 Worlds. So, for the time being I personally don't plan on wasting a lot of energy being negative about this set back and refocus this energy positively into new strategies and techniques to safely race in next years World Championships, and then I'll focus my energy on getting the rule reversed after that. This is just my opinion and the way I'm going to choose to look at it.

P.S. I have a 5 inch GPS for sale if anyone is interested, barely used by an old man (of course I'm referring to Mark here, not myself) 6 times a year for the last 3 years. Laughing

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Last edited by MISSBHAVEN on Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Bald Man
The Myth.... The Legend


Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 654
Location: Under the bridge

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Jesse...Move on and live with the present rules and change them if you can later.
Next..... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Itsworthit



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 432
Location: Whitecourt

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe we can put it in our advance program, allowing them in Canada if the race committee is in agreement with allowing them, for the 2011 worlds, not 100% sure tho
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TOP DAWG



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Peace River Alberta anada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spoke with Brian Mcgregor on the weekend and he's awaiting the details from the UIM. Its possible this rule might be flexible, you see some of the rules imposed by the UIM can be modified and changed by the hosting country, now nothing is certain but if this rules is one of these then its possible that with a mojority vote by the Canadian Worlds Championship committee it would be possible for the canadian worlds race to allow the use of GPS's larger then 4"
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Dale



Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree with Willy the wording of this proposed rule change is not good but the reasoning is sound. At the rule meeting in Mexico the New Zealand group wanted the use of GPS in the boat totally banded. We, Canada, USA and Mexico, disagreed that they were needed so the navigator could communicate safety hazards to the driver. For this reason the hand held GPS was put into the rule so that it could only be used by the navigator and the drivers eyes would stay on the river.
This may not be the greatest way to keep safety in the sport but it is much better than “NO GPS in the boat”.
I do agree that we should not make rules to keep technology out of our sport, but sometimes there needs to be some compromise as to how we keep racing safe and fair.
As for the King accident is GP they would have hit that rock with or without a GPS. Spencer said he got off the race line and went down the wrong side of the rapid, you only see and mark the hazards on your race line. He would not have seen this rock when pre running.
As for the screen size the rules states “maximum 4 inch screen” which will be measured top left corner to bottom right corner.
There will be a rules meeting after the Canadian race and I’m sure there will be a lot of discussion at that time.
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ntjetboater



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 401
Location: Land of many rivers

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an avid GPS user and Instructor of these little devices I have been reading and watching this with interest. When we followed the races I often looked at the units in the boats and wondered how much effort racers put into programming the units with important data. I will not comment on the rules and screen sizes but on the safety side I feel I should throw in my 2 cents.
A GPS unit that is programmed properly can be a huge advantage for the race team. If the map data sets are upgraded within the unit and then when pre-running you take really good notes to enter into the unit and add named wpts you can easily stay in the race channel of choice and should be able to avoid most if not all obstacles. It would also enable you to mark and plan to take every short cut possible, in this instance it does create an advantage for the team that spends a couple hours entering data into the gps. As for the GP rock strike..if they had a gps and had the race lines entered in the unit they may not have gotten off the preferred line as you would see the line choice well in advance.



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will b



Joined: 22 Feb 2010
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next thing you guys will want is autopilot Very Happy
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