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fx engines
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Alumaman



Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 306
Location: Whitecourt

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before things get off track lets go back to Will`s first post.
Quote:
so my question is how do you get 390+hp out of one as one of the racers said that cost him 10,500 and another that claimed 385+hp. a crate zz4 is around 5000 is it not? well whats the extra 5500 spent on?


When I put my ZZ4 together it started with a base stock ZZ4 for 5,000. Too which I added;
1000 better oil pan
1200 dual MSD ignition in place of GM HEI
400 pro billet distributor required with the dual MSD
700 better carb
125 that water thing-a-ma-jig in place of water pump
100 basic K&N air breather
900 Rewarder headers
1000 dyno,( just to be sure I didn’t have a lemon engine)
1275 light weight alternator and hard anodised pulleys’
300 starter
Total spent on the engine $12,000 and everything was then and is now within the rules. So not saying that the situation was the same. But I do know that you can walk into AMS in Edmonton and say ``give me a stock ZZ4 with all the goodies`` as a drop in package. You will get a bill for well over 10 grand and a dyno sheet that you can use to impress the competition by saying.`` I got a $12,000 dollar AMS engine that makes 390HP. But.....It is still a stock motor.

And how do you get 390+hp? GM`s spec is 355 HP, at 5400 RPM with 32 degrees timing.
My dyno`s were on average 375CHP at 5400 RPM and 36 degrees. Sure its more HP... but it`s not usable power because I never ran the boat above 5000 RPM. And most FX guys try to stay at that 5000 max as the stamped rockers are the weak link in the engine. Also 32 degrees is what GM uses as its safe for pump gas. Bump it up to 36 and you will need av. gas or blending with C12.

Testing fuel, before and after dyno`s, a Chinese gift exchange, large fines, sealed engines, it can all be done... but it is just more work for an already over loaded group of volunteers who may not be available next race. After all their letting far too many cheater engines slip by. Rolling Eyes

end[/quote]
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SouthIdahoGary



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Wilder, ID, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alumaman wrote:

Testing fuel, before and after dyno`s, a Chinese gift exchange, large fines, sealed engines, it can all be done... but it is just more work for an already over loaded group of volunteers who may not be available next race. After all their letting far too many cheater engines slip by. Rolling Eyes


Richard is one of the wisest, nicest folks I know in Jet River Racing. My hat is off to him. His insight, wisdom and experience in these matters is second to NO ONE.

X2-hence my rejoiner-

Quote:
Be very careful. The finger pointing and whispered back room accusations shortened the life of FX racing in the US of A (In My Humble Opinion). Bad feelings become a canker and a cancer. But if the PERCEPTION is that someone is cheating and getting away with it there is a HEAP of bad feelings directed at everyone involved...sometimes even innocent bystanders and promoters and VOLUNTEERS.


Pretty soon even the enthusiatic Race Director doesn't want anything to do with putting on a race-not worth the heartburn. Becoming a pariah is not too uplifting. Kind of like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer-feels good when you quit......

We in the AWJA fought with some of these same type issues at about the same point in time in the evolution of the class. Some of us who spent HOURS trying to make rule accomodations and ensure "fair" (whatever that means) when issues came up, were even castigated about even being involved because "you don't even race FX". D@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't.

Without volunteers you have no venue. Without a venue you have no race. Without a race you have a very UNvaluable raceboat.

There is no easy answer. There is no easy "fix" to the problem, real or perceived. Chasing shadows is easy, catching one is not.
You can run yourself ragged trying.

Case in point: At one US race 2 FX motors were protested. Subsequent teardown in the pits, looking for the obvious, revealed nothing untoward. It was a heads off, visual, bore / stroke type of teardown, Took HOURS. (Did not have an Audie Cam Doctor to check every little thing on the cams. Which when dealing with a factory gang ground type of cam is ludicrous. They, the factory cams, can be off by up to 5° and the lift can be off by about 5% from what I could ascertain) Even after both were given a clean bill of health, so to speak, there was still an undercurrent and grumbling.

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"faster, Faster, FASTER until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of DEATH"#163 "Tuff-n'-Nuff"
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well put Gary. Thats is why either leave as is or go to the gm sealed crate engine including oil pan if it will fit the boats.
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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!
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Viking502



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 137
Location: Alberta Beach, AB

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe even look into running same pump / impeller / intake setup.
Combine that with sealed crate engine and you may start to even the playing field. Just my 2 bits

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The GENE POLICE told me to "Get out of the pool".
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Rapid Transit



Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 206

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

everyone has to have fuel, what about all using the same fuel source,e.g. same provider,same truck, or tank or whatever, but all the engines would have to run pump gas . sounds to me that this would help even the field with very little effort
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Forplay



Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 85
Location: Leduc, AB

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what is the reason for leveling the field? Get to watch boats all pass by at 1minute intervals just like they started? Last time i checked Crate class means "crate engine" not crate boat class. This sport is hardly a spectator sport to start with, so trying to make it NASCAR is pointless, you'll just lose the racers. 

I hated watching the stupid Players Iroc series, boring.... I miss the days of watching Harry Gant win the Daytona 500 with no fenders or hood. That is racing.

There is hardly a day that goes by that I'm not thinking of ideas to get another .2mph out of my boat. The in-between days are usually spent working to pay for it then trying it. That's racing to me - the continual efforts to push yourself and your equipment to the top. I'm in this to race, no drive mrs daisy around. My boat has gone faster than it ever has this year, just got bit with a lemon crate and it cost me big time. And so did 3 others get bad engines as well I'll add. And by bad engines, I mean blew up & cratered within 2hrs. Mine broke during break-in!

WHICH would just have easily happened with being sealed ZZ4's. So I've spent 12K+ on two engines to get a runner, sure look's like it would have been cheaper to get a dyno'ed one that works for a few grand less in hind-site.   

Slowing the fastest boat's to the lowest common denominator for what reason? And I'll say this now - 

I don't know ANY single racer in my class that would put and engine in that does not comply with the rules period! To suggest otherwise is utter BS. The fastest boats this year were well setup, organized, and put in a ton of hours to get there. My hats off to those guys, great job. I'll vouch and defend any one of then in a second about having "cheated" to get there. If someone really believes that's the reasons, then fork the 500 for the protest. That rule and option is there.

If somebody really wants to get 10 boats together that all have speed limiters on them and race 60 miles down the river - start a new class and have at it. I'll be in my shop screwing around with my boat trying to get another mph out if it. Lewiston's in another month, and I gotta whole lot of races to do next year.

Garett
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RED ROOSTER



Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:01 am    Post subject: zz4 Reply with quote

Some really interesting points. A simple way to level the playing field could be to run with the ready to run zz4, comes with a carb and distributor....no goodies.
I had a great time at the races and almost everyone was great to deal with and the volunteers where awesome.
I was a little confused with the "385HP" zz4's as well, but as Richard mentioned, 385 hp at 5400 rpm only looks good on paper.
zz4 class definitely levels the financial playing field to some degree but boat still stands for bring out another thousand ! Even when buying a hull you can spend large and an ultra lighweight or 20k on a used tunnel.
When the top guys are shaving weight by the ounce and spending 100's of hours tweaking intakes, spoons, grates etc. it comes down to much more than extra horsepower.
This is a little of topic, Why is the penalty for not finishing a race only 1.1 times the slowest boat ? That's only 6 minutes for a one hour race ?!
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jack



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SouthIdahoGary wrote:
Sealed? LMAO! Sealed how???? And by WHOM? Where there is a will there is a way. the will to win at any cost is pretty seductive and not that expensive.....replacement sealing bolts anyone?? Wink

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0803_crate_engine_racing_discussion/index.html


Quote:
so my question is how do you get 390+hp out of one as one of the racers said that cost him 10,500 and another that claimed 385+hp. a crate zz4 is around 5000 is it not? well whats the extra 5500 spent on?


Anyone check the fuel??

As long as there is not a spec fuel HorsePower comes in a can.....Can you say Oxygenated Gasoline? How about Propylene Oxide?

Anyone ever check the carb?

Did anyone, has anyone ever been teched? Any motors get "pumped" for a displacement check? It would be pretty easy to put a stroker crank in. It is hard to catch if you don't ever look. If you are relying on trust and integrity to maintain a level playing field you are putting a large bunch of your participants at a distinct disadvantage.


So how do "we" get around this problem??

Here is your easiest way: have your local sanctioning body put a $250 exchange option in the rules for any crate class. But then you have to watch for under the table "deals". "Buddies don't let Buddies lose their motors." you know.....

Is there a mechanism to Protest another's equipment?

Be very careful. The finger pointing and whispered back room accusations shortened the life of FX racing in the US of A (In My Humble Opinion). Bad feelings become a canker and a cancer. But if the PERCEPTION is that someone is cheating and getting away with it there is a HEAP of bad feelings directed at everyone involved...sometimes even innocent bystanders and promoters and VOLUNTEERS.


There is a lot to consider for those who partake in racing , wow I had no Idea but then again I don't race , just boat around .
I have a Indmar 5.7 carbeurated in my 18ft Kenferm and the 47 mph it does it fast and costly enough for me as I'm my only sponsor !
People ( I have always thought and experienced as a child ) that have to cheat are really screwed because they know what they have done even if they are not caught , so how can you feel like a winner or true competitor , your not . You would not rate even with the last place boat . So the only thing you have is a lie to puff your chest up with , my god how bad is that .
Sad but true that the rest trying their best have to deal with that .
On the same note what a relief to know that everyone that was forthright moves a step forward to the winners circle .
Best of luck to all you that are involved .
JackZ
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