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no mounted style or large gps's for worlds
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saz



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Peace River

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:08 pm    Post subject: no mounted style or large gps's for worlds Reply with quote

First off I have to appologize for not attending the meeting and awards last weekend i am out of the country with work.

I hear from the meeting that no large format gps are legal to run for the race due they are not safe?? can some one explain? this a tool that is mounted that if you do your prerunning can help you avoid trouble spots how is this not safe? I hope I have been givin poor information as this makes no sense, with the speed that some racers are now hitting I think we need to use every tool avalible.
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gatr



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 20
Location: gravel bar

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: gps Reply with quote

the navigators eyes are better used watching the stuff outside the boat.
In nz they have banned the large mounted gps and chart plotters but a hand held with a less than 4 inch diagonal screen is the maximum size allowed in the uim proposed rule changes

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saz



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Peace River

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: screen Reply with quote

well I can tell you right now we run a small screen but wanted to go to a larger screen due to fact it is harder to see, my thought are that the large screen would be more of a glance then having to concentrate on a tiny screen. The navagivator in my boat does not stare at the gps just a quick glance for referance - My question still is how is a larger screen not safe?
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Will R



Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 676
Location: NWT/Alberta

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with you on this one fer sure Hal. in fact i cant understand how it would be unsafe at all. If anything it adds to safety. you can pre run a river ten times and still get ffffed up. the gps would help ensure safe passage through some forgotten obstacles!
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a large screen gps and I can tell you that it is a safety tool. I only glance at it to see if we are coming into an area of extreme roughness or rock gardens. We have saved ourselves from large rocks many times because of it. Spenser king would not have hit the rock on the smokey if they had been using one this season. The boats are going so fast now that it should almost be required. Remember here in Canada we are travelling over 60 miles one way on some of the legs. In the old days it was like 20 miles max in Whitecourt and 45 in Peace River. When has it ever been a good idea to remove safety equipment from a boat. The governing body cannot tell a navigator how to navigate. If staring at the gps works for the guy then let him at it although I don't know anyone who races that way. Evil or Very Mad Maybe the guys that made the decision have never hit a rock at 100 mph that was just below the surface. If they want some more injured people this is for sure the way to do it.[/list]
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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!
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gatr



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 20
Location: gravel bar

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the justification for the prpopsed uim rule 900.5 Equipment
Safty,the GPS was being used as a navigational tool by the driver and the crew during the race, with big screens the driver has the tendency of looking at the GPS so the risk of crashing increases to the extent that they were not paying attention to the river course and/or natural hazards.One of the responsibilities of the crew is to navigate so he could be also using the GPS.

personally i know of an accident between 2 boats a couple years ago that the gps was a factor in one boat contacting another at speed on a section of river wide and deep enough for ten boats.

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Forplay



Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 85
Location: Leduc, AB

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the text from the UIM proposal sheet I got from the meeting.

Quote:
Justification

Safety, the GPS was being used as a navigational tool by the driver and the crew during the race, with big screens the driver has the tendency of looking at the GPS so the risk of crashing increases to the extent that they were not paying attention to the river course and/or natural hazards. One of the responsibility of the crew is to navigate so he could also be using the GPS.


Speculating, but I'm reading that as a near miss incident must have happened there. If someone out there is dangerous or risking harm to crew/spectators alike - there's already rules & penalties to deal with that. I don't think the FAA would re-size or pull all GPS/FMS's out of aircraft because someone almost or did crash screwing/fumbling around with one, or flew into a mountain because that's the route they programmed - and never looked up ...

I believe that we need to keep safety a foremost responsibility for both the crews and spectators alike. With speeds hitting almost 200ft/sec now, even at 130ft/sec as in my class - the results of heading into a wrong channel that dead ends with no brakes is obvious. Just as much as hitting a shelf, bank or hazard etc because your not looking "up". Whether your team navigates by notepad, map, GPS - or just by the seat of your pants doesn't really matter to me. Whatever works (and it's size) for your team that keeps you, others teams and our spectators safest from you - I think should be utilized.

I agree with the aviation & marine industry alike recognizing GPS's being both a great navigation and a safety tool when used properly and effectively by those well versed in it's operation. Used incorrectly, dropped, starred at, fumbled with, route loaded from wrong race or dead batteries LOL are all going to be distractions in the boat regardless of size. A GPS won't help to read the river, nor will it make a better navigator or faster driver - It's simply a tool that tells you where you told it - you wanted to go (route/track), and/or what to look out for.

My guess is, most accidents are not caused by the tool, more likely by a tool using them ... Wink
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey why don't we remove the roll bars because they creat blind spots. This is a frigging joke!! My driver can't even see the gps in our boat and the last I looked there was not anyone but us two in the boat during a race so I don't think that they can tell me what I was or was not doing in there.

Really it is more about them asuming somthing and making a decision than actually knowing. Just wait until one of the turbine boats hits a big rock at 130+ mph that they would have known was there using a gps. They can tell there reasons to the families of the deceased Crying or Very sad

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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!


Last edited by boosted on Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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sandman



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 260
Location: The captains table

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is arguements for both sides on the GPS issue.
Sure would be sad if a 135+mph turbine boat ran into a rock because the navigator was watching a screen instead of looking for that sleeper that showed up when the water dropped overnight. If I remember correctly, a few years back an FX boat smacked a rock, tore the pump suction apart and ended up having to be hauled home. Gps was being used, submerged rock locator function must have been disabled I guess.
Unless the gps has a function that will locate these rocks for you when they are just below the surface, you better not be spending a majority of the time looking at a screen.
What this rule does is minimise the chance of something like this occurring again. Now you may not be one of those guys that looks at the screen all the time, but the guy that does is more likely to cause a wreck which will do nothing but hasten an end to the sport as we know it.
I used a gps for the first time this season and absolutely would not rely on it to get us through the rock garden, only a fool would. It worked good on the Ft. Assiniboine run to help remember the shortcut channels though.

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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't use it to get through the rock garden just to let us know that one is coming and to really pay attention to the river in front of you as appossed to checking guages and looking to far ahead for the quicker line. I can see your line of thinking but I still think that the gps is a safety feature and not a hazard. In the Watino downstream run our gps saved us from hitting the big riock that Colby did. We had just passed Spencer and had started really moving when I glanced down at the gps and saw the skull and crossbones that reminded me about the rock. We had been heading right for it. I pointed for Jesse to really be on the lookout for it and 1 second later he gave me thumbs up that he saw it. Would he or myself saw it without the gps. Maybe maybe not. If I check the gps and there is no dangerous spots flagged, that dosen,t mean that I close my eyes and have a nap(although I could the navigator doesn't have to be consious in order to win ha,ha).

The rule seems to be put in place to protect against the guy who stares at the screen. Do you or anyone know anybody who does that?

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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!
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gatr



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 20
Location: gravel bar

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, you do know this is a directive as a result of nz's racing rules and isnt a direct comment on canadian style racing or racing teams. Sure it will affect us as we follow uim rules for world marathons and our own race series, but we dont have to raise our hand to pass...yet.
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I understand that. That is one reason that it doesn't fit here. We have different rivers and the navigating assets of a gps over here are not really much of an advantage. It is the sfety aspects that bothers me being lost. The reason they are saying that you cannot have it is because of safety concerns so in my opinion it is for the wrong reasons. I can see in New Zealand that the navigating aspects of it could be more of an advantage with all the braided rivers and because of that it may have some merrit over there. If only ran 20mile legs over here then it wouldn't be alot of help either as it is pretty easy to remember 20 miles of river for rocks and danger spots after a few pre runs but 60+ miles is another story.

Really if it is a directive then me pissing and moaning won't make any difference. I can choose to put up with it or not race. And I thought they are trying to grow the sport. The younger generation likes technology.

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Mark

Lets go back I think we missed one rock!
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gatr



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 20
Location: gravel bar

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They also want to start a dialog on the future of a and b class. Kind of a five year plan to try to bolster numbers in these classes as the believe them to be declining.Thoughts on uping the cubic inches in bolth classes to make them small block 440 and big block 560 to accomidate the engines already out there. any thoughts on that Question
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TOP DAWG



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 572
Location: Peace River Alberta anada

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have used a 8.5" screen for a couple years now and its sure a nice tool as far as safety goes. We can plot the trouble spots on it ( IE rocks lurking below the surface that you can see when you pre-run at 45 mph ) and when those spots do come up you can avoid them. There is no way at 140 plus MPH you can read the water far enough ahead of you to avoid this type of hazard. We need to make some noise and get this rule reversed. This is a step in the wrong direction as far as im concerned.
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saz



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Peace River

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: support Reply with quote

I agree we need to not support this step back in safety in our sport . I really have no idea on what the next step should be to protest this proposed idea.
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