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fx engines
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Will R



Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 677
Location: NWT/Alberta

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: fx engines Reply with quote

just wanted to voice an opinion, not complaining just want some feed back. The way I understand fx(affordable entry level boating with everyone running the same engine) to be is that the engine is to be crate zz4 with no altercations at all. so my question is how do you get 390+hp out of one as one of the racers said that cost him 10,500 and another that claimed 385+hp. a crate zz4 is around 5000 is it not? well whats the extra 5500 spent on? I've herd others and myself mention before that crate engine class's should be sealed motors only and with not wanting to spend over 10,000 on an engine thats "supposed" to be the same as everyone elses in the class sounds like a good idea to me. just would like to hear some opinions before I decide if I order another sbfx-v hull or not.
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WILSON



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 352
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree 100%.

The problem is that there are no "factory sealed" ZZ4 engines.

Buying a crate engine, and taking it apart, and tightening the tolerances and re-assembly with the same parts does comply with the rules, but you're right. Spending 10K to do that goes against the principle of "crate" and "affordable".

When dealing with these issues, and ideas on how to limit this, we always get to the question "How do we enforce this rule?" I still don't know how we could enforce a rule limiting the "tightening" or whatever other tricks there might be. Even worse, nobody likes to share the tricks.

I know the current rule is somehow "easy" to enforce.

In my opinion, and the guys who go to the UIM or other rulebook meetings will confirm, is that we can play with other racing rules to level the field. For example, I believe that bigger penalties for DNS and DNF do help to build an advantage to "reliable"(not so expensive) over "fast" (more expensive).

Probably too long for an opinion, but that's mine.

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SouthIdahoGary



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Wilder, ID, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: fx engines Reply with quote

Will R wrote:
so my question is how do you get 390+hp out of one as one of the racers said that cost him 10,500 and another that claimed 385+hp. a crate zz4 is around 5000 is it not? well whats the extra 5500 spent on?


Here is a start.....

http://www.castheads.com/88958603chevycratemotorzz4.php

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Will R



Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 677
Location: NWT/Alberta

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes there is a factory sealed zz4! its the ct355 part number 88958603 and I think its only $900 more than the zz4.check it out! Thanks Gary that can explain some things. all the more reason to go factory sealed.


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WILSON



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 352
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Gary, as usual, you're the source of real wisdom. Thanks for the information!!! This is VERY enlightening.

That factory sealed ZZ4 version is rather new. Isn't it?? Three years ago I was looking for one, but the sealed crate engines that GM had on sale were different and with less performance.

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JET1



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easy solution is everyone shows up with there motor on the bed of the truck and you have a chinese gift exchange before day one and anyone that needs to swap motors gets a 5min penelty everyone should be showing up with a relitively fresh ZZ4 so there shouldnt be much fuss over who gets which motor
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Brandon



Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ever think of trying a engine claim rule. racers dont cheat as much because they dont wont to lose there engine. check out imca.com and go to modifieds and look at the engine rules. this works pretty good where we race.
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SouthIdahoGary



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Wilder, ID, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sealed? LMAO! Sealed how???? And by WHOM? Where there is a will there is a way. the will to win at any cost is pretty seductive and not that expensive.....replacement sealing bolts anyone?? Wink

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0803_crate_engine_racing_discussion/index.html


Quote:
so my question is how do you get 390+hp out of one as one of the racers said that cost him 10,500 and another that claimed 385+hp. a crate zz4 is around 5000 is it not? well whats the extra 5500 spent on?


Anyone check the fuel??

As long as there is not a spec fuel HorsePower comes in a can.....Can you say Oxygenated Gasoline? How about Propylene Oxide?

Anyone ever check the carb?

Did anyone, has anyone ever been teched? Any motors get "pumped" for a displacement check? It would be pretty easy to put a stroker crank in. It is hard to catch if you don't ever look. If you are relying on trust and integrity to maintain a level playing field you are putting a large bunch of your participants at a distinct disadvantage.


So how do "we" get around this problem??

Here is your easiest way: have your local sanctioning body put a $250 exchange option in the rules for any crate class. But then you have to watch for under the table "deals". "Buddies don't let Buddies lose their motors." you know.....

Is there a mechanism to Protest another's equipment?

Be very careful. The finger pointing and whispered back room accusations shortened the life of FX racing in the US of A (In My Humble Opinion). Bad feelings become a canker and a cancer. But if the PERCEPTION is that someone is cheating and getting away with it there is a HEAP of bad feelings directed at everyone involved...sometimes even innocent bystanders and promoters and VOLUNTEERS.

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WILSON



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 352
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the last race, the FX engines were checked.

Displacement was checked on the the top places. Probably something else too, but I wouldn't come close to the inspection.

Halfway down the race, all FX boats were checked. They verified the size of the carburetor, and with the help of an endoscope, at least they checked the ports to see if they had no apparent work, or if the pistons looked like stock.

I believe this is the correct approach. Maybe testing for compression would help to eliminate a bit more suspicion. And Gary is right: If the engines are not checked, the class will die.

The UIM rule allows for any gasoline, so there's no point on checking it. I have always insisted at the rule meetings to limit to fuel pump only, and am always told that "FX engines don't last with pump fuel". Funny, as I have used three ZZ4 engines in my racing career fed only with pump fuel, and have never blown one. But my engines have none of the above...

Anyway, I'll probably keep myself from posting more opinion in this matter, as I certainly don't want to look like "the sore loser", which I am not. I enjoyed racing in Canada and I look forward to race again in international events, even if I am the slowest boat in the class with a genuine crate engine....and pump fuel....

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SouthIdahoGary



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Wilder, ID, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
as one of the racers said that cost him 10,500


That is one that always has baffled me. If you are going to spend that much, why not just be a "B" boat?

Some interesting stats from the just concluded Canadian Worlds:

Any one of the first 6 FX Tunnels AND the First place FXV would have been third in "B" class. From another angle....the 6th place FX Tunnel boat would have taken THIRD in "B" Class........

22 boats finished all the legs. Here is the breakdown:
3 Unlimited
1"A"
1 "B"
7 CX
7 FXTunnel
3 FXV

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blowin crazy



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 42
Location: LOG JAM

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuel from the pump and restrictor plates ?
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been reading this post and there are a few things I should mention. You cannot biuld a competitive B motor for 10,500.00. Some of them were getting close to 40,000.00. Restrictor plates sound good but they also do not limit the amount of money that could be spent. Pump gas is another problem. Who's pump? I have seen and have had engines blow up that got one bad tank of pump gas.

The only way to do it is by using a couple of biulders that are picked to do the engines to a certain speck and be dynoed within a certain level for a preset price. If there are complaints against the engine it gets taken back and dynoed to verify the hp. No not the cheapest way. Better for the engine biulders than a crate class. Stops 99 percent of cheating. My guess is around 20-25k per engine. If you ask me thats to much for fx class.

Factory sealed engines are the cheapest. Yes if someone really wants to cheat then they will find a way. I think some of the tech guys are pretty smart though and they might get caught. For a major infraction there should be a large fine like 25,000. I m not talking that the carb spacer is .125 to thick but if the engine has been modified and they get caught.

That way it is still cheap for the guys who are honest and it gets rid of the "prepared engines"

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Last edited by boosted on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hines



Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Red Deer

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boosted i have to agree with you,LOL,i understood this to be an inexpensive & competive class to race in when it was setup,let driver,nav and boat setup take over,crate is the answer,the twicken penalty is also in line that will keep the hp close i would think.Later.
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boosted



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one problem that would still exist is repairing a sealed engine. Yes you can take to a biulder who will for a price blueprint the engine and as far as the specs are concerned it will be within the limits. As with anything if you line up all the specs in a the right direction there can be a reasonable power gain at the end. That is the tough one and making rebiult engines in that class get resealed after a dyno test by an approved shop may send the cost up but it is an option. The responsability ends up on the approved shop to make sure that they don't supply or let a motor out of spec through.
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Wet Dream



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 63
Location: Whitecourt

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my opinion. Boat racing and affordable are two words that do not go together. Sure a ZZ4 crate engine is around $5000 depending who you buy it from, but you cant just buy it open the crate and put it in your boat and expect it to start. You need some parts to make it run and they add up. Depending on how fancy you want to get the more its gonna cost. Here is an example

Carb 750
spacer 150
valve covers 300
headers 1000
evac 75
ignition 600 way more if you go with a complete msd ignition
sparkplug wires 100
oil pan 600
water pump 250
pulleys 150
altenator 250
alt bracket 100
starter 250
Kodiak thermostat housing 200

Then if you want to get it dynoed your probably looking at another 1000
Everything adds up.
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